22 Why Do We Worship? [Chris Tomlin & JD]

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome to the creative team talks podcast for Hillsong Creative. This week we have something extra special for you. We're bringing you a recent message from a well loved guest. We hope that it blesses you. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Why don't you take your seats? Can we thank the team for leading us so powerfully today? And if we haven't met, my name is JD and I have the honor of being part of our creative team and the responsibility to steward and lead our worship and creative team. And I'm really excited for this afternoon's session. We're going to do a lot. We're going to start by, I don't know if you saw in your program is talking about worship for everyone. You know, I think a great place to start is asking one of the most important questions in life, and that is why, like, has anyone ever thought why yawning is contagious? I don't know why. Apparently it's harder to find the answer than you would think. But, you know, there's an incredible leadership lesson that I'm sure you have heard about. And it's when a child asked their mother why she was cutting the roast in half before she put it in the oven. And the mother just was like, well, cause that's what my mother always did. I'm not sure why you're going to see your grandma this week. Why don't you ask her? And so the child went and asked her grandmother, why do you cut the roast in half before we put in the oven? And the grandmother just smiled and said, well, when your mother was growing up, we didn't have a tray big enough to fit the roast. And so that's why we cut it in half. So it kind of illustrates it's important to ask the question why? And I stepped into a new role of leading our creative team about twelve months ago. The first question I actually asked was, being a part of this team for what feels like my whole life is why do we do what we do? Because I don't just want to do it because we've done it before. And I think it's really important to ask why we do what we do. And so, because I'm incredibly smart when it came to this question, I thought, I'm going to pull out my phone a friend card. And so I decided to phone a friend. He's a bit of a rookie. He's an up and comer. I think he's got a lot of potential when it comes to leading worship and writing songs. And so I called him to have a little conversation about why we worship. And I recorded the chat, so we're going to look at it right now. Well, Chris Tomlin, thank you for taking my call. [00:02:29] Speaker C: How are you doing? [00:02:31] Speaker D: Doing great, man. It's good to see you. [00:02:34] Speaker C: It is so good to see you. And obviously chatting in this session, looking at why we worship and really the power of it. And, you know, you've written incredible songs, as I have joked with you, but also in genuine. We are grateful for your gift, and you've led worship around the world to so many people. And are there any, any memorable moments that are in your journey that stick out? I know. I'm sure it's hard because there'd be thousands, but anything that in the journey is memorable to you. [00:03:02] Speaker D: Yeah, there's lots of stories and lots of moments that come to mind that are just so powerful. One that happened not too long ago was one of those moments where you just. You never know where your songs go. You write a song, you never know where they. They land in people's lives. And it's always amazing to hear stories. Well, one story, I didn't realize that it was one of those divine moments. I'll just say it like this. I was going to this conference on Bible translation, and they were. It was this conference about these guys translating the scripture to people groups that don't have the God's word. And I was going to lead worship at this conference. Well, I'd gotten there late. I was doing, like. I was in the middle of kind of conference. I'd gotten there a bit late. And I was walking in the lobby of this hotel, and a friend of mine that I didn't seen in quite a while walked up and said, chris, great to see you. I was like, oh, man, great to see you. And he said, this is great timing. He was with this, this gentleman standing there, and he said, I want to introduce you to this guy. And he said, he just spoke, and I hate that he missed it because it was one of the most powerful things I've ever witnessed. And I was like, okay. And I introduced myself, and. And this man spoken broken English, and he said that he was a pastor from Syria, and. Which instantly gets your attention. That's a different level than a pastor from Dallas, Texas, or something like that. A pastor from Syria. And I was like, okay. And he said, he started telling his story. My friend said, would you tell Chris your story real quickly? And he said, yeah. He said, obviously, my country is islamic country. My village is islamic. My family is islamic. And he said, jesus started to come to me in dreams, he said, I started having dreams of Jesus every night, which I think is so beautiful. And I remember he said, I really didn't, had never known who Jesus was or been taught about him, but I knew in my dreams it was him. He goes, and every night he would say, come follow me. And this one night I decided I'm going to do that. I woke up and I said, okay, lord, I know you're who you are. I know you're who you say you are. I'm following you, he said, and speaking in broken English, he said, I lost everything because of it. I lost my family, I lost my friends, I lost my work, I lost everything. And so much so that my brothers told me they were going to take my life because I had to renounce this Jesus. I was embarrassing the family. This is what they had to do is take, my own brothers are going to take my life. And he started talking about miracles and just how, what it had cost him to live this faith and so much so he said, my brothers even, they even gave me a date. They said, we're going to, on this Friday, this week in the public square, we're going to take your life because of this. You will not renounce this Jesus and you've embarrassed our family. And he said, on Thursday night, the brother that was threatening me died in his sleep. And he was just like. He said, I just wasn't, I couldn't believe it. I had made peace with that. This is whatever Jesus wanted me to do. If he was losing my life, I would follow him. And I'm talking to this guy and he keeps sharing more miracles. I don't know if you've talked to people like that, but you're like, you start thinking if you're a Christian. I'm not sure I am. You know what I'm saying? It's just like, it's like talking. This guy's intense and, and I feel like I'm talking to somebody right out of the Bible. And he said, every day, you know, it's a life and death for me and my friend. The reason I share this story is my friend stopped the conversation and said, have you ever? He looked and said, man, have you ever heard of christian music? And I was like, first I was like, what a terrible question to ask at this moment, this conversation. He goes, have you ever heard of christian music? And a guy, and the pastor said, no, I never have. And then began to keep sharing stories and my friend kind of winked at me and I was kind of laughing and he stopped and he stopped. He said, wait a minute, wait a minute. He goes, I do know one song. I know one song. I know one christian song. He goes, I have it because it's on my phone. And he said, it's my song that I sing every morning. It's my song of faith. When I go out to share about Jesus. This is my song every morning. And he's looking right at me, jd, and he starts saying, he starts telling me the chorus because he said the words are, I know who goes before me. I know who stands behind. The God of angel armies is always by my side. And he's talking to me like, I don't know the lyrics. And he's like the one who reigns forever. He is a friend of mine. The God of angel armies is always by my side. And as you can imagine, tears start running down my face. I'm just thinking what I was thinking. First of all, this is the most amazing moment of my life, writing a song that has affected somebody like this. And my friend stops him and says, do you know who wrote that song? And he said, no, I have no idea. And he said, well, you're talking to him. And he comes and gives me the biggest hug, JD, and just grabbed me and he said, you have no idea what this song means to me. And I'm thinking, lord, how do you let me be a part of a song I write in my apartment? And it finds its way to this pastor in Syria who's. It's a. It's literally his lifeline, life and death every day. This is his one song. And I'm crying. He's crying. He said, do you want to hear this song in Arabic? And I was like, yes, I want to hear this song in Arabic. He pulls out his phone. He has one song, man, one song. His phone shows me, and he starts playing it. It's some guy singing in Arabic. And I don't know who they are, but they're amazing. And it was just one of those moments. I was thinking, lord, how do you put this together? You know, I just walked into this hotel. I've been there for literally 1 minute. And it was just one of those moments I know that God put together for me, you know, his encouragement for me, hopefully his encouragement for him that God just isn't the details. And so I just, I'm so grateful because that was the little song that was written for us, for faith. That song was written as a song for people to cling on to their faith in the midst of these fearful times. And crazy times. And that, and that it found its way to this guy who literally gives his life every day to build the church. It's just incredible. So that's one. When you say moments, that's a moment recently that I can't shake and I never will. I will never leave. I will never sing that song again without thinking of him. [00:09:25] Speaker C: Wow. That is the crazy story. Trying to get to my next question, but it's just incredible. But, you know, for you, you know, again, talking about why we worship and revisiting why we do what we do in this space, and you have been a worship leader songwriter for just a couple of years. I joke that you're a rookie, but you're absolutely the opposite. But why do you keep leading worship or why do you keep making the decision to worship? [00:09:58] Speaker D: Ask, man. What a great question. That's for all of us, right? It's definitely not because it's my job. I can say that it is for me. It's continually reminding myself that the world is not. When I worship, I need it, man. I need it so bad because I'm reminding myself that the world doesn't revolve around me. I can be so self centered and we can all be self centered and that our flesh that just wants the me me, I call it being a me monster. I can find myself doing that sometimes where it's all about me and what worship does. Is it recenters? It re centers in and reminds me that, no, I'm not the center and God is not in my orbit, but God is a sinner and I am in his orbit. And when I try to put God in my little world and it's such a small kingdom and make him fit into my world, that doesn't work out so well. That doesn't work out for anybody. But when it's. But when I realize, when I remember, when I come to worship and remember, oh, my goodness, this is the God of all creation and I, and actually he is the center of all things. And my little world revolves around him and I want to be a part of that kingdom. I want to be a part of his world. That's what happens when I worship. That's why I keep. That's why I need it. That's why I, that's why there's always a new song to bring. That's why there's always something to. To bring to God. Because it's just remembering and re centering of and reordering our self reflect what is true. And that is the truth. That this, that we center around him. And long before you and I were here, long before there was a hillsong, long before there was Ethan, there was worship. And it'll be going on forever. And we're all part, we're just a part of that. And just remembering that is so powerful. [00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah. You are so true. And I love that. And just one last question before I let you go. You know, we are, we're at a conference and it's a, it's a church conference. And, you know, we lead worship at church. We're church kids. And from your perspective, why do you, where do you see the value of. Why do we gather corporately to worship? To sing songs together. [00:12:18] Speaker D: Yeah. Why don't we do this right? I've given my life to it. What is this for? And one thing is, I'm reminded that when we come together and we get like this, we come to, we're not singing to the walls, we're not singing a ceiling. We're singing to a living God. And that's the truth. And what I love about coming together as people is that every time we come together, something that God's really shown me in the last few years is that worship is about remembering. It really is. Every time we come to worship, we remember God's goodness. We remember his grace in our life. We remember how far he's brought us. We remember his holiness. We remember that he is God and we are not. It's a time of just, it's amazing what that does. And it's a moment to lift our eyes off ourselves and to lift our eyes to the greater story. That there is a kingdom that lasts forever. This, that kingdoms rise and fall and man. We watch the news. We watch, watch our world. Life is unfair. It's so hard. People in this conference, you may experience great loss, may experience great hurt. It's hard and unfair. But there's something powerful about when we come to worship, we remember God's grace in our life, remember his love. We remember that this is not that. What we see right here is not all that there is, that there's more, that we are surrounded by a spiritual world that we don't even know half of that. We remember those things and we come to give God praise and glory for his everlasting kingdom. The more I live, the longer I go, the more I just, the more wonder I have of who this God is. And I want to know him even more. And when we come together and worship like that, that's why we do it. You mentioned the song holy forever, that when I wrote that song. That's what my, that's what was in my heart, is to write a song that reminds us, takes our eyes off ourselves and reminds us of the. That there is an everlasting song, that there is an eternal song. And the amazing thing is, as we know the lyrics, revelation says day and night, day and night, they never stop singing. Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was and is and is to come. So that never stops while this conference going, that that song's still going. And when this conference is over, that song is still going. And we just, when we come together, we just join in that. We join in that, that everlasting praise. And it's a. It's an amazing time to remember together of, of our God and how good he is and how great he is and his grace and mercy on our life. [00:14:56] Speaker C: Well, I love that. Thanks again for chatting. Thanks for who you are, for what you do. Again, I just really appreciate who you are and just believing that wherever you are, I forgot to ask you, I'm sure you're at home, but that, yeah, you and the family would be blessed. And thanks for blessing us with a little chat at Hillsong conference this year. [00:15:14] Speaker D: Oh, man. So good to talk to you and to all of you out there. Bless you and your churches and worship, leading and all the things. [00:15:21] Speaker C: Love ya. [00:15:24] Speaker B: How inspiring. Hey, what an incredible man of God. And I'm grateful for him that we could have a little chat. And I don't know how we add to that of why we worship. I know that we could ultimately look to the scripture where there's over 500 verses that talk about why we worship and why we sing and why we play instruments throughout the whole arc of the Bible, starting from Genesis four, where Jabbaal, who was named as the father of stringed musical instruments all the way to revelation four and beyond, as we've been singing about that worthy is our God, worthy is the lamb who created all things. And so there's so much that we could dig into the scripture of why we worship. And Chris definitely helped us out there. I'm glad I used my phone or friend card. I don't know about you, but I thought we'd also touch really quickly on what worship actually is because I think it's so easy for us to, especially if you have grown up or in a church culture that we often refer to worship of our time of singing that's made up of clapping, maybe lifting your hands, singing out for maybe 20 minutes on a Sunday morning. And yes, that is a part of worship, but it's only such a small element. And I would even love to start to change the language of how we talk about worship. Yes, we endeavor more than ever to bring our best and to make an encounter of worship publicly and corporately, as excellent as we can, because God deserves that. But I pray we never judge worship on how it went. Asking questions like, how was worship this morning? Or how was worship? That's not the question I love even hearing from Darrell Johnson. I've had the privilege of spending a bit of time with. And the question is not how was worship? But the question is, did I enter in? Did I enter into worship? Because that's the reality that we, in every moment, have an opportunity to enter into. What Chris was talking about is this eternal song. And we get this idea through scripture itself. In Zephaniah, it talks about that God sings over us. I love, even in psalm 42, the psalmist says, in the night season, I tune into your song, that even when it's in our. We're in our darkest hour, that God sings over us. And I love that we are in an age, and I'm grateful for it, that music and worship music has never been more accessible. I love the platforms that we have, and we can listen to our worship essential playlists from the moment we wake up to the moment that we go to sleep. And I say more of that. I know it helps me, and it's part of my day. But the question I want to ask myself, because there's a danger. I pray that we don't become consumers of worship, but we make a decision to consecrate ourselves, which simply is a term that says we're going to set ourselves apart. I pray we never consume worship like we do our shot of coffee in the morning to give us a little pick me up. But we understand that there is this eternal song that is going on, and the question is, are we going to enter into it? I love Romans twelve. It's probably the clearest, at least for me, scripture, when it comes to what worship is. And Romans twelve one talks about offering our bodies everything. It's not just our song on a Sunday morning, but offering who we are as a living sacrifice. But I also love that in Romans twelve two, and I don't believe it's there by any accident, straight after this really well known, helpful scripture on worship that it says, don't become so well adjusted to the culture that you fit into it without even realizing. When I think about our culture, there's so much to say about it, but I guess it boils down to, and you heard even when Chris was talking about that the world doesn't revolve, our worlds don't revolve around that. God doesn't revolve around us, but because we don't want to be self focused, but we would revolve our lives and our worlds around him. And I do think that is the default of our culture. The great Martin west has a saying that we're all born tuned to the radio station WIIF. What's in it for me? And I think that's a cool little saying, but I just think how true that is. And we can approach our times of worship going, what's in this for me? And we can consume maybe a song or a sound or an opportunity, or we can make a decision to consecrate ourselves. Actually, like romans twelve two says, let's not become so well adjusted to the culture that we fit in. No, I believe consecrating ourselves as lives of worship is going, no, I'm gonna set myself apart and I'm not gonna make it about me, but I'm gonna make it about him. And that's where I believe worship truly starts. And the final thought that I wanna bring is we've talked about why we worship and really what it is, which is this eternal song. I simply wanna finish with the couple of minutes that I have left is how do we actually enter in? There are so many steps in so many ways, but I just thought I'd give you for me what I believe the first one is, and that is surrender. I want to finish by reading one scripture. I'm going to invite the team to come and join us and we've purposely carved out a few minutes here. And if I'm being honest, I have so much expectation for what God is going to do right now, I can't force it. And if I'm being honest, I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what's going to happen, but I just believe God knows what's going to happen. And I believe even in this moment, we don't have to force anything, we don't have to strive in this moment. But I'm just praying as I'm continually every day wanting a new revelation of who God is and the way that he's causing us to live. I believe this is gonna be a moment of reconsecration where we decide to set ourselves apart to living these lives of worship and just imagine. And can I tell you as a creative worship pastor. And as a worship leader, that man. Do you imagine the corporate times when we come together to worship God, when we've actually consecrated ourselves? That it means it doesn't matter what the screens are like, it doesn't matter what the lights, doesn't matter the song list, doesn't matter how good the worship leader is, doesn't matter if I'm not the one leading worship. We're going to make a decision to not ask the question, how was worship? But am I going to enter in? And as I said, I believe one of the many ways that we enter in is through surrender. And I want to read this passage of scripture. There's quite a few verses which, to be honest, I hope you don't get lost in lots of words, but you get lost in the truth of God in this moment. Because what's special about this scripture is it's David, who I believe is the greatest worship leader that ever lived, the greatest songwriter that ever lived. It's this prayer where he comes before God. And it's just after the prophet Nathan had challenged him about the affair that he'd had with Bathsheba. So you gotta take yourself to this moment. This isn't a moment where he just won a battle and got the victory. It's the opposite. I believe it could have been in one of his darkest moments. I pray that we'd open our eyes, that we'd open our ears to the heart of David, which I believe he carries, as we know, the heart after God. But a heart of worship is something that we can take as an example and how we can live lives that enter in to this eternal song in his presence. Psalm 51. David, he cries out, have mercy on me, o God, because of your unfailing love, because of your great compassion. Blot out the stain of my sins. Wash me clean from my guilt. Purify me from my sin, for I recognize my rebellion. It haunts me day and night against you and you alone have I sinned. I've done what is evil in your sight. You will be proved right in what you say. And your judgment against me is just. For I was born a sinner. Yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. But you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there. Purify me from my sins and I will be clean. Wash me and I will be whiter than snow. O, give me back my joy again. You have broken me now let me rejoice. Don't keep me looking at my sins. Remove the stain of guilt. Create in me a clean heart, o God, renew a loyal spirit within me. Do not banish me from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and make me willing to obey you. Then I will teach your ways to rebels, and they will return to you. Forgive me for shedding blood, o God, who saves. Then I will joyfully sing of your forgiveness. Unseal my lips, o lord, that my mouth may praise you. For you do not desire a sacrifice, or I would offer you one. You do not want a burnt offering. The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart. O God, let me read that verse again. The sacrifice you desire. You don't desire a sacrifice, or I'd offer you one. You don't want a burnt offering. The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart. You know, when we join the eternal song of worship, we come with repentance, we come with honesty, and we come with surrender. And as a result, I love that we encounter forgiveness, we encounter healing. Ultimately, we find joy, and we encounter the power of the Holy Spirit. And, you know, one last thing before we sing and have this moment. The Bible describes worship actually in physical terms. And the root meaning for the hebrew word translates worship to prostrate. And the word bless, a lot of people have interpreted, even when Abraham used it, was to actually kneel. So I want to encourage us in this moment. I know we're kind of squashed in like sardines in some of these rows here, and we don't have a lot of room, but please, I don't know about you. I don't want to go through any motion of just singing because there's words on a screen or even because the song might be half decent. That's not what this is about. This is all just about creating a moment to come, to surrender again, and to understand that all God is looking for is not a perfect performance, not a polished conference, but actually hearts that are honest and humble before him, that are broken. But understand that in our need of him, that God is able to bind the brokenhearted and to free the captives. So in this moment, however it is you feel to worship, whether it's on your knees, whether it's on your face, let's just take this moment to resurrender again. What I love about it when we get to this moment, that we don't find that we have the strength. It's in our weakness that God is made strong and we encounter him. We love you, Jesus. Sadeena.